June 4, 1919

, 1.\Ir. REED. Mr. President, will the Senator permit me to answer that question in a moment, and let me pursue for the present the theme I was on?

Mr. WALSH of Montana. Certainly.

Mr. REED. I shall be very glad then to answer it ; and if I start to take my seat without answering it, I hope somebody will call my attention to it, because I think the answer is very simple, plain, and easy.

Now I address myself to other Members from Southern We all know that it has been the commonly understood situation that in the South the women have not desired the right of suffrage and that the sentiment has been strongly against suffrage. There have been more reasons than one for that. One of those reasons undoubtedly arises out of the race question. Another reason is probably found in the fact that for the most part the ladies of the South are intensely wedded to their home life, and are but little inclined to thrust themselves into public affairs; and I think I can say, without at all disparaging the women of other parts of the country, that at least it is true that one of the most glorious types of womanhood that ever beautified and rendered sweet and lovely this old earth is the women of the South. Down in the South you have taught State rights-a doctrine which was originallY fundamentally right, if properly understood, but to which I have always thought the South gave too extreme a construction, that resulted in the endeavor of the South to withdraw from the Union, for I do not believe that right . ever existed; but I do say, as I ought to say in passing, that the man who would harshly judge . the South to-day for the position that it took would be a most ungenerous man.

The doctrine that the State of Georgia or the State of Mississippi or the State of South Carolina was a little republic in itself, whose people controlled its own affairs, and which in all local matters was a sovereign, with only the limitation that certain rights that had been yielded to the Federal Government should, of course, be subtracted from the sum total of the power:S that the State otherwise would have had as a complete sovereignty-that doctrine was a splendid doctrine. It has been close to the hearts of the people of the South. It has, sir, been very close to the hearts of all men who have understood the dangers of centralized government. How can men from the South be found who will vote to take away the very thing that constitutes the control of the destiny of every State, that thing being the electorate itself? How can you, who have sought to retain as large a measure of power and control in your own States as possible, go back to your people and justify this surrender of that right which lies at the very foundation of all your rights, and which, when legislation follows, may be found to constitute the means by which the entire election machinery of your State will go into the hands of Federal agents?

We might just as well look this question in the face. When politics run high, as they will again, and when passion rides in its chariots of fire across this land, as it will again, and when the clamors go up from the dark sisters of the South that they are not being permitted to vote, and the sisters of the North who belong to the political party that feels that it is losing votes down South get aroused, I want to say to you, Senators, you are . very likely to get some legislation compared with which the force bill will be a gentle and merely persuasive measure. So I say that men of the South ought at least to give their people a chance to vote on this question.

There was something said here in the argument to-day-and I am occupying the floor when I did not expect to stand here more than a moment-to which I want to allude, because of the fact that people of · the different parts of this country know their own affairs, and that they may be misled by judging the entire country by the conditions of their own States or people. I readily confess-! not only readily confess, but I gladly insist-that the people of the State of Montana, with its not very large population, with its boundless opportunities, its undeveloped resources, may properly decide a question in favor of women voting, when under the conditions in other States it might be highly unwise. I know-any man who has visited the great West knows-that the pe _ people of these Western States that are sparsely · settled are closer to their government and know more about their public men and public affairs than the people of the great congested States. An entirely different proposition in is presented. I do not know what the vote of Nevada is to-day, but, if I recall aright, a few years ago, when I was serving on the executive committee of the national committee, I think they had a total vote of about 25,000 in the State. That vote is not as large as the votes of some wards of some cities.

In a population of that kind, if a man is a candidate for Senator or governor, every man, woman, and child in the State knows him and knows all about him. It is an intimate and close relationship that exists. They know his public life; they know his private character; and not only the men, women, and children know him, but every well-bred · dog recognizes him. So I sometimes think that it is a greater compliment to be elected from one of those States than it is to be elected from a great, big State, where they do not know the men so well.

The women in those Western States, with their environment and their surroundings, are closer to public affairs than they are in the great, congested centers. I suppose there is not a lady of any intelligence in the State of New Mexico who does not know all about the distinguished Senators from that State. They know about their past and their present and, as nearly as anything human can judge, they know about what their future is going to be. They know who are the members of the legislature. They know the qu stions that are arising out there that affect them and affect their State. They have all been talked over. I do not mean to say that they have not anything else to do, but the life of the whole State is close to them.

Let us take New York City. I do not pick it out as a place of ignorance, but as a place of great numbers. The average lady in New York City does not know her Congressman or what his name is. There are a good · many men who do not know. A good many hardly know where the capital of their State is, and they are not intensely ignorant at that. The problem is afar off. There are too many theaters and moving pictures and method? cabaret , and there are too many matters of interest happening every day 1 tens of thousand of events where there is one happening out in these Western States; and that is not a disparagement of the Western States. Nobody ever heard me di parage the Western States' If I had my life to live over again, I would rather go in a place like that than in any other place in the world. So that it is so outrageously unjust for the people of one State to try to force a law upon the people of another State.

\Vbat right ba\"e I as a citizen of Missouri, or what right have the people of Mis ouri, or what right has the Legislature oi: Missouri, to say who shall vote in the sovereign State of Texas, when the people of Texas by their vote have just decided that question? And what right has Texas to say who shall vote in Mis ouri, when the people of Missouri are capable of deciding that question for themselves, , and have decided it in recent , years? What right have I to go down into Mississippi-a State where I have never had the privilege of visiting, but a State which I r spect, and whose people I respect-and try to tell tho e people down there whom they ought to allow to vote? What right have I to insist that the question shall be submitted to a legislature composed in most of the States of the Union. when they are picked up at ordinary by-elections, of men who have very little to do, ancl who are sent to the legislature to fill out a ticket?

Why, I tell you, sirs, that I have attended many political conventions in my State--and I cite it because it is as good a State as there is anywhere-and I have attended many political conventions where, when we got through making up the rest of the ticket, we would have to canvass the convention to find men who would let us put their names on the ticket for the legislature. Now, why not give the people of these States a chance to elect delegates to a convention, at least? Why not give to the people of the State of Texas the right, before their privilege of fixing the qualifications of their voters shall be taken away from them, at least the right to express their opinions through delegates elected by the people and sent to a convention? How can any man ju tity a denial of that?

The Senator from Montana [MT. W ALSII] asked me a question, which was--

Mr. WALSH of Montana. Mr. President, let me remark that the Senator apparently felt that I was endeavoring to ask him a llar<l question. I am sure that it was a very easy one for the Senator to answer. I did not intend to put it as a poser to the Serra tor at all.

Mr. REED. Ob, I know the Senator did not, and I did not mean to make any reply that would give the impression that the Senator bad. I am unfortunate when I talk in doing it in a sort of a brutal way, I guess. I do not mean it.

My opinion is that the problem is very easy of solution . All that is necessary in the world is for the legislatures of the various States, when they meet, to pass a simple statute providing for the selection of delegates to a convention, to be held at a certain time, to consider and pass upon the amendment. That machinery may be easily called into play by simply employing the ordinary machinery of elections for the purpose of taking the ballot. Of cour e, I would say, as a matter of preference, just my opinion that comes to me on my feet, that probably could be done best at some general election when the people would turn out.

1\fT. WALSH of Montana. Exactly.

Mr. REED. But, of course, the elections could be held before that, if the legislatures of the States should meet in time, or, if we are to have extra sessions, they could be convened for that purpose as well as the other.

1\Ir. WALSH of Montana. Of course, the legislature could or could not call a convention, as it saw fit.

Mr. REED. Yes.

Mr. WALSH of Montana. And, of course, legislatures that were against woman suffrage would not call a convention.

Mr. REED. I do not think that would follow.

Mr. WALSH ofMontana. That would be the natural political • tendency, would it not?

Mr. REED. I would not say so. I do not think that would follow.

Mr. WALSH of Montana. Is it not a fact that it would result, first, in a contest before the legislature over the question as to whether a convention should be called, then a contest would occur before the people over the election of delegates t<1 the convention, and finally a contest would ensue before the convention as to whether it should be adopted or not; and does it not mean there would be three fights over this matter, and that is the reason why the Senator desires to pursue that

Mr. REED. No; that is not the reason, not as the Senator puts it. It is true there might be a contest as to whether the convention should be called, but if there was any large sentiment in favor of the proposition I have not the slightest doubt of its being called even by a legislature that upon a vote on the main question might be against it, and :for this reason--

Mr. WALSH of Montana. But, Mr. President--

Mr. REED. Permit me to complete the sentence. The argument that the people have the right to express their opinion, and this is a means provided for the expression of that opinion, would be a very potential argument.

Mr. WALSH of Montana. I agree with the Senator, but he will bear in mind that is exactly what we are now asking and what be is resisting.

Mr. REED. Ob, no.

Mr. WALSH of Montana. \Ve are asking that the people be given an opportunity, and he is objecting even to the submission of it. If he were a member of the Legislature of the State of Missouri, how could he consistently, with his r cord here, vote to call a convention?

Mr. REED. The Senator does not state my po ition with the fairness he usually manifests. You are not asking that the people be given a chance to vote. You are a h.'ing that the legislatures be given a chance to vote, and we, by this amend ­ ment, are asking that the people should be given a chance to vote.

1\.fr. WALSH of Montana. I should like to ask the Senator just one further question. If this joint resolution had been originally introduced with a proposition to submit it to conventions called in each of the States, would the Senator have voted for it?

l\Ir. REED. I would have declined to vote for it and for the reason--

1\lr. WALSH of Montana. Exactly.

Mr. REED. I say it is a que tion that belongs exclusi\ ly to the people of each State. That is well h.'"Ilown to be my po. i­ tion. But if I was a member of my State legislature and the question was presented as to whether the people of the State should have the right to vote on suffrage, and there was any considerable sentiment in favor of it, I would vote to gi\"c the people a chance to have that vote and decide that question. Now, I follow the Senator along in his objection. I do not think there would be any difficulty in getting the legislature to pass . a law for submission; at least, there would not be any difficulty if there was any considerable sentiment in favor of the measure. At least there would be no difficulty in getting a convention called by any legislature that would ratify this amendment.

Mr. WALSH of Montana. I agree with the Senator.

Mr. REED. " Therefore you will not lose an hour or as second there.

1\lr. WALSH of Montana. Tile question would be presented in exactly the same way. Those legislatures that are in favor of the amendment would can conventions, and tho e that were against it would not call the convention.

Mr. REED. Very well. If you had three-fourths of the le!!i.s­ latures of the States in favor of suffrage, you would get your · conventions in three-fourths of the States.

1\Ir. WALSH of Montana. Exactly.

Mr. REED. And if you did not have three-fourths of the leg· islatures or could not get them ultimately, you never could pass your amendment.

1\ir. WALSH of Montana. Exactly, and you would have three fights to make instead of one.

1\fr. REED. Let us discuss the fights as a separate proposition. The point I am making now is that there is no foun<la · tion whatever in your claim that you would be delayed because the legislatures would not act by calling the conventions, because every legislature that would vote for suffrage, that would vote to ratify this amendment outright, would certainly vote to call a convention . So you do not lose a minute. You do have to go and ask the legislatures to cast that vote, and if you do, that affords a little time while that law is being passed, and it may be pa sed at any session of the legislature for the people to di cuss nnrl understand the question.

There would be a little delay in calling this convention. How much delay? Just enough delay so that there could be fair dis cu sion by th e people. Do you want this thing or do you not want it? Do you want to change your fundamental _ law or do you want to retain it as it i ? Before you change a fundamental Inw that has been a part of the Constitution of the United States since the foundation of the Government, that has been engrayen in the constitutions of the several States from the first, .., t, there ought to be a little period of discussion when th e p opie have that issue segregated out and pre ented to them sharply for their consideration, and two months' time or three months' time and a debate before the people will do no harm. There would be three fights, says the Senator. There never ought to be n change in the fundamental laws of this country without discussion, and that is what the Senator means by a fight. If this measure is so sacred and so holy and it it carries es o much of good as is contended, then the proponents of it can well afford to argue its blessings to their people and let their people become wise and advised. . .

Now, we have elected a convention of delegate . We have pro c erle<l to that- point. How much time does it take for them to act? Just a reasonable time to debate and discuss this one question and vote upon it. SuCh a convention as that ought to meet, organize, debate the proposition, and adjour·n in less than five days' time. Probably if there was a decisive vote it would meet, organize, and adjourn on the same day. So there is nothing in the claim that this works an endless delay. The truth is that those who stand here crying for suffrage in the name of democracy are afraid to submit this question to a general vote . . They are fleeing from a general vote. Those who stand here pronouncing encomiums upon the rights of the cltiz ens of the Republic to vote regardless of sex are trying to deny the ri gh t to vote to the great electorate o! this country upon this important question. There is no escape from tnat. That i s all there is in it. The thing we are appealing for now is that the people shall have the right to vote at least to the extent that is provided by the Underwood amendment. How can you deny it to us?

I know some people think this is a political question that ought to be settled so that we can play a little politics. Witness the ambitious rivalry of Democratic and Republican leaders. Democrats got together in the last days of the last session say. ing if we do not put this through the Republicans will put it . through at the next session. So we- will put it through regardless of the merits, in order that we may get the votes of the women. • l\1r. PHELAN . Mr. President--

1\lr. REED. Anti when this session is convened, behold the spectacle ! Before the new committees were organized the Democratic chairman rushed forward with this bill, without a report from a committee, standing here like another Ajax, not defying but inviting the lightning, and declaring "here is the Democratic Party ready to give you suffrage," all in the hope uf getting the votes of the women.

Then upon the other side there is the little filibustering tac· tics to delay action by the Democrats, so that committees ma:y be organized and the Republicans can bring in the bill and they can coddle the ladies and deceive them by · the ardor of their advances. Although there is business of the most pressing character, and although appeal after appeal has come for hearing , they have set aside all that, and the manly form of the Senator from Indiana [Mr. WATSON], stretched to its fullest height, is visible upon the . floor demanding instantaneous ac· tion, by attitude and manner at lea.st declaring to all these ladies, " behold, I alone am the true lover of women. The Republican Party has always opened its hearts and its arms and its embraces to your cause, and we are the real champions of moment? this measure."

Why this performance? For the cheap clap-trap political p"urpo e of trying to get some votes, not beca.use o{ the merits of the case. Let me tell these valorous and knightly gentlemen upon both side that they reckon without the intellig-ence of women. If the women of this country are fit to exercise the Sacred privilege of citizenship and voting then they will never vote the Democratic ticket or the Republican ticket because of the performances of either of these champions ot their cause. They will see and have seen through the thin veneer · or your pr tens and have understood your motives from the first, and know a well what you are up to as your wife knows When you tell her you are going down town on business and she knows . you are going for a game of poker. "[Laughter.] Well, look .. ing for a game of pinochle, then. .

It may be that women are not by reason of mental attitude, not from lack of mentality, as well qualified for suffrage as men, but when it comes to the question of knowing what you are up to and seeing clear through you, they can see through the little shams and pretenses of a man in the dark of the moon without a star shining when you could not see through them if you had a microscope that magnified a thousand times. They know ex· actly what you are trying to do here to-day. They understand all about it, and in their hearts they despise you for it, an,d they play upon you one against the other just as women have played with fo'Olish men since Eve and Ada.m met in the Gar· den of Eden . .

How thrilling it was yesterday when the Senator from In· diana [l\1r. WATSON], standing at his full height and speaking in a round rich tone, said as he waved his finger in the air in true dramatic style, "I shall insist that the Senate remain in se sion to-morrow until this great measure is passed." Did he see the women flocking to the polls in Indiana and demanding ballots for Watson for anything he wanted? But I warn him that the women in Indiana if they come to vote will have other fish to fry," and other attachments to follow, and other questions to determine . The glorious vision of yesterday will have departed from their recollection. The inspiring scene will be lost in the limbo of time, the days of forgetfulness will have covered the great event, and in the silence of the grave it will be lost with many other celebrated and wonderful events.

You Democrats who talked about initiative and referendum; who went up and down your States declaring that it was the God· given right ot the American citizen to cast a vote on every ques· tion; who insisted that legislatures acted so improvidently and so tbouglltle ly that it was not safe to trust them with the final enactment of a law; who declared that in every instance the people of the State should have the right to demand a reference to them of every act passed by the legislature; and who, when you secured the enactment of such a statute in the Western States, impressed upon your people that you had brought to them a new charter of liberty, a new Declaration of Independence, n. new and splendid guaranty of the rights of man-we ask you for a referendum of this constitutional question, and we point out the way for that referendum under the Constitution of the United states, and you propose to sit . here with your speeches in favor of referendum votes in the one hand and a denial of a referendum vote in the other. How are you going to justify it? Let me tell you something you will have . to reckon with, you gentlemen who are forcing this measure. . You will have to reckon with that large class of women who do not want the vote at all, who have never asked for it, who dO not want to be equal to men, because they have always held themselves to be superior to men. You have got to reckon with that large class of women who are not so vocal in their desires, who stay by the fireside and in the homes, · and who are not taking orders from anybody ; who are not repudiating old policies because they are told to do so. I venture the prediction that, whereas you may gain somewhat of the force of some who may advocate this cause, you may lose some on the other side .

Why not let the voters in the States have a vote on it? Texas has just voted. Why not let her have another vote? My State voted three years ago. I am willing to have a vote to-morrow; and if the people of the State of Missouri vote for wollliln suffrage, it is all right with me. So far as I am concerned, I do not think I would lift my voice about it. We ask for a referendum vote. I want to keep on repeating it to you referendum men who insist that the people have a right to a referendum vote on everything: What are you going to say when we ask for a mere re fere ndum vote? Consistency is a rare jewel. I would like to see that jewel set firmly in the crown of glory and greatness that adorns the brows of some of my distinguished Democratic initiative and referendum friends.

Mr. ASHURST. Will the Senator kindly yield to me for a

Mr. REED. I will.

J'dr. ASHURST. I merely wish to say that my view of the situation is that jewelry is vulgar.

Mr. REED. That depends entirely on who wears it and how it is worn. Of course, a diamond on a dirty shirt front does not look well, but I have seen diamonds so worn that they adorned the beauty, while beauty in turn graced them. So I think we might hang Jewels an over the distinguished Sen a tor and the jewels and he alike would be more resplendent.

How many States ha-ve the · initiative and the referendum? Has Iowa a referendum vote? I thought progressive Iowa had all the new -things. I know Montana has the- ref rendnm vote and Wyoming has the referendum vote and Texas has the referendum vote. It is impossible that the Senator from Texas [Mr. SHEPPARD] should ha"Ve overlooked the referendum. Missouri has a referendum vote, and every time the people have voted they have rejected what the legislature did that was submitted to them, that without the least variation or shadow of turning, and I think generally to the benefit of the State. I think California is progres ·ive enough to have the referendum vote.

Mr. PHELAN. Mr. President--

Mr. REED. I will gladly yield to the Senator from California.

Mr. PH~~- I was about to interrupt the Senator a moment ago, l\fr. Pre i<lent, to ask him if it is not true that Congress could provide for the calling of conventions in order to secure an expression from the people of the States. The Senator seemed to assume in his argument, in answer to the Senator from Montana, that it would be necessary for the legislatures to call the conventions. . .

for REED. I did not so intend. I said it was the way it could be done. I did not mean to say that Congress could not provide it.

:Mr. PHELAN. That would defeat ~·our purpo e if it was only possible for the legi lature to call the convention?

Mr. REED. Oh, uo; it would not defeat it.

1\fr. PHELAN. You seem to have a poor opinion of the legislatures. .

1\lr. REED. I have not a very exalted opinion of them. There was a time when men like Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson sat in the assemblies of their States, but really and candidly I do not know of anybody of that caliber who is running for the legislature in any State just now. .

~Ir. PHELAN. The Senator seems to have interrogated me on the que tion of the referendum. I want to assure him that I am in . favor of the referendum and will probably support the amendment offered by the Senator from . Alabama. California is the home of the referendum. We have perfect confidence in om· people and we c.onsult them; and in this amendment before the Senate I have no question of doubt as to the response which California will make, because it is already a suffrage State. I believe in the principle of the referendum and therefore shall support the amendment.

:Mr. REED. I am delighted to find the Senator of that opinion.

Mr. PHELA...~.'l'. May I be permitted to finish my statement?

Mr. REED. Certainly. · l\fr. PHELAN. . .... "l\T. I wish it were incorporated in the amendment propo ed tiy the Senator from Alabama that Congress should provide for the calling of the conventions. I would not like to leave .it to the legislatures, because you . first have to secure the legislature before you can secure the conyep.tion. ~fr. REED. Would you think, if we may just converse a moment about it, that there would be any question of your legislature in California calling a convention?

~Ir. PHELA...'l'. The people instru<:ted our legislahu·e-that is to say, by referendum-against prohibition, and the legislahlre the other day voted for prohibition. There seem to be no communication bet\ve n the several parties. [Laughter.]

~ir. REED. So much the more reason then for submitting this question und any other question of importance to the people.

Mr. PHELAN. The people are always right.

~Ir. REED. The people are not always right. Of course, they make mistakes, but the people have the right to say. I think "·c should agree on that, a..ml if the people make a mi take they can correct it.

:\Ir. :MYERS. Mr. President--

The PRESIDENT pro . tempore. Does the Senator from Missouri ~ - yield to the Senator from Montana?

l\11:. REED . . I yield to the Senator.

~lr. ~YEllS. The Senator from Missouri seems to be rather severe on legislatures. Did not the legislature of Missouri once eleEt the Senator to the United States Senate?

~ir. HEED. Is that the end of the question?

.Mr. MYERS. No; I have another question. Do you think any better result would have been obtained if there had been a direct vote of the people?

:Mr. REED. I will an wer .both questions. First, the legislature elected me to the Senate after the people had a primary that instructed them to elect me-a State-wide primary, where we had a general vote. . · !\fr. l\lYEUS. A primary of yow· party only?

Mr. REED. Yes; a primary of my party held under the law under which every man running on the ticket that I . was on would vote for me in the legislature and every Republican ·would Yote for the Republican candidate. I got a majority of . the votes of the State, and I likewi e got a majority of the votes in the Iegisln ture.

The Senator asks me whether a better re ult could have been obtained i:t the people had had a direct vote. I can only answer that by saying that the people ratified and confirmed the action o:t the legislature by . afterwards electing me by a direct . vote. I do not know but both of them made a mistake. [Laughter.] I do not claim infallibility for either of them. I do not " claim the legislatures always are wrong. I would not be so understood. Many splendid and very patriotic men get . into legislatures; very stupid men get into legislatures ; many men who act from improper motives get into legislatures. The Senator, along with me, voted to take the right away from the legislatures to elect Members of the Senate. I believe he voted with me on. it; I know if he did not he stood with me on it, for legislatures have been found wanting.

Now, I am delighted to find what the Senator from California says, and if I was understood as meaning that Congre s could not provide the means, I was misunderstood. I directed myself to the question of the Senator from Montana, and I answered him in part merely and answered otherwise, and thank tile Senator for his correction.

for President, if we could get one or two more votes of men wlto believe in the initiative and referendum, we would be all right here to-day .

Mr. ASHURST. Mr. President, \\"ill the Senator pardon me for , an interruption?

Mr. REED. Certainly. .

Mr. ASHURST. I want to point out to the Senator. that, even should the Senate adopt . the amendment, it would be of uo utility. I think I can demonstrate that to him in a moment. I am not without sympathy fo'r: the amendment of the Senator from Alabama, but there is no use to waste time in trying tp do that which will not be done. Suppose the Senate should to-day adopt this amendment. It would go to conference, and under the present make-up of the committees of conference the conferees . would recede in five minutes from the Senate's amendment, because both the committee of the House and tll.e comm . committee of tl.le Senate are opposed to this amendment or to any other ~m c l1d­ ment. The Senator from Missouri knows tbn t ns \Tell n · I know it · 1\fr. REED. \Veil, now the Senator--

1\lr. ASHURST. Let me finish.

~fr. REED. Certainly.

Mr. ASHURST. What I say here is a well known a any fact can be to anybody, that both the committ es are opposed to any amendment of any character whatever; that the conferee w o ul<.l recede in three minutes; the report would come back to this body ; and the conference committee's report would not b e rejected, but would be accepted. We would simply have lost a week's time; we would have been fooling ourselves and ot · h e t people in attempting to do a vain and useless thing.

I repeat, I am not without sympathy for the amendment, but it is of no practical utility whatever to urge it now.

1 Mr. REED. Has the Senator from Arizona concluded?

Mr. ASHURST. Yes. - l\fr. REED. Now, the Senator brings me some information which he says I know as well as he knows it—well, I did not know it. I did not know that the committee of either House of Congress would deliberately betray its instruction .

Mr. ASHURST. Will the Senator pardon me there?

Mr. REED. Let me finish the statement, · and then I will yield. Whenever the conferees go . out from this body with their minds made up in advance that they will not endeavor to carry out the action of this body, they go out to betray the body—— ~.Ir. ASHURST. Now, will the Senator yield?

Mr. REED. And I am not prepared to say that that is the situation.

Mr. · ASHURST. The Senator is uniformly courteous, although at times he uses, as I myself do-l am a very frequent sinner in that regard-a word now and then that has a little sting to it. The conferees on the part of the Senate who would be appointed would not betray the Senate. · ate. Conferences are nearly a thousand years old; they _ go back to · the days of the ancient Witenagemote. It has been the rule for centuries that when a matter is committed to conferees, when one house passes a bill ' in one form and the other house passes it in another form, the house that recedes does not betray.

Mr. REED. No; but the man who goes out intending not even to try to carry out the instructions he receives-the Sen~­ tor has objected to my term, so I will not again use it-goes very _ far from fulfilling the obligations of his position. I will put it in that way. ·

Mr. ASHURST. That might be true; but I will ask the Sena· tor if he does not believe that what I have related would be exactly the thing that would take place? If we put this amendment on, does not the Sc.!lator believe that that would take place?

· Mr. nEED. N-o; I um t1l0t prepared • to think that, because I - think "it wo-uld b-e <liscreilltable on the -part of the Senate con- :fer . es to do -a thing <Qf th : at 'kind. 1 · would think U very -disl(l)UTteou-s on the part of tile House conferees not to give due mld proper and · serious consideration to any action of the coordinate legislative branch. 'To my mind, when the H-ouse -of Representatives acts it speaks, so far as one branch of the legislature ~_an; for the · great American people, for no matter what may have ' been said, no matter how efforts may have !been made · to · belittle it, it is the branch closest to the people, and tit is the -only way the great American people have to express s their - voice, except as - they may · now and always have had that right in thi.s ood;y.

Therefore, when the House of Repr-esentatives meets and, after -du-e deliberation, -pa es upon .a measure and sends it here, I lihlnk it is worthy . of the most serious consideration, and in any the people. conference I lla\e ever .sat upon-tho1.1gh they have not been numerous-I hav e felt that the representatives of the House of H e pr.esenta-tives had the right to be heard, their opinions to be wei g hed, ami !1: never found them unwilling to hear and to wei g h the opinion· of the Members of th-e Senate. Upon the oth e r hand, wl1 e- n this 'body speaks i.il the name of the .American people, , s<:> far a . one branch of the legislature can so -speak, and when, _ after debate of days, !it adds 1lll amendment of - this kind to .a measure. :r believe, first, that our - -conferees, · as loyal Members s of t11e S. en a t c, mll endeavor to have it accepted. I • do not see why a qu e.~ i:ion so well grounded lin justi-Ce as this would not reccix:e t h'0 · cordial consideration and mayhap tll-e .su;pport of tlu ~ other B o use. So I - ho-]) e my friend will · at least give us his vote; for, i f he does give u his vote, and this matter is treated -so summarily that it is disposed of rn three minutes, there will be very little time lost, ~ and he will m least 'have the 'Sati ·faction -of saying to - some of n-s that he gave the peop'le ef our States an -oppo-rtunity to TG- t e an-d the people of his own Sta te · an oppo · rtuni:t to · vole.

Mr. ASHURST. Mr. Presid e nt , in response to the interrogatory ;p-ropounded by the Senator ru to ' W'lletftle-r {)l" not I would :vote for the amendment, let me say that there is not a man i.n the Senate Chamber who feels · mo-re than -d-o I the necessity f.or a.n .amendment to the F · edera !l Constitution to . sweep away the pre ·ent archaic, reactionary manner -ef ratifying · and passing .on referred amendments. Indeed, 1\lr. Presid-ent, as !I said the oth-er day, under the present situation 431 men --c{)1l]j_)(}se Cengl.'9ss; if they w-ere -of . a mind to do .so---they would - IM}t .de se, I apprehend-but if it'Jtey '-' · were of a !lllind :to do so, th-ey could pass .a joint resolution providing for kingly - government .m· for .a go-v-ernment directed by the apostles of ·oci.allsm. Tb~ u,500 men composing the legislatur-es <>f the States could ratify :the amendment. So, r repeat, as I said the other day, that under the present archaic :reactionary method of submitting ;amendment to be passed upon by the legisla tm·es, -and not 'b:y the jf)£0l1le .of the State s , 4,000 me-Jl constitutionally and :tega.TI.y could w.~p mvay . every vestige of liberty which the American jpeo-_ple jpQsse s; .and likewise these 4,()00 co-uld transform this Government into a Bolshevik government, into a soviet, into a kingly gov-ernment. But the American people are .not going to do that, for their partic.u- lar virtue 'is the virtue of knowing how to go-vern themselves . and other people. · ·

I am in th-e near future · going to urge with what poor capacity ! have the proposed constitutional amendment which !has been introduced by the Senator :from Connecticut [1\fr. BR"-'. -oEGEE] to provide tha rt hereafter when constitutional amendments ::n·e submitted to the States they · shall be ra'tifi.ed by the votes of the people of each State. The reason, however, why I shall not ;vote for this particular amendm-ent at this particular time to be submitted · to · a convention is the following: No constitutional amendmen.t. except the prohibition amendment, has been m-or-e widely discu etl, more tho-roughly understood, than has this amendment. All the American people who '(:an read, all th-e American people who receive mail and recciTe dispatches of any kind, lmow U1at Congress is submitting :this amendment. TbPY know that the legislatures will be in session, and the people will not be taken u.naw.ares. "They can petition their legislatures. Then, again, 1\fr. President, I hardly think it wo-uld be fair to what 1 w-ould . call the -cause of woman suffrage to make an exception in this instance, , after having amended the Constitution eighteen times since 1789, and upon each occasion the amendment having been submitted to the State legislatures. Tlre first 12 am e ndments were all submitted at one tim-e, 'find two, I think, the first and second amendments which were submitted, are still pending. Tl1e eleventh amendment "''as submitted to the leg.i.s-· latures; the twelfth -- was &'Ub-.mitteU to the 1-eg'islattn'es; the thirt e entll, fourteentll, an-<1 nft ee nth "" . ere s ubmitted to · tili~ \legtslature · , and the sixtee-.rrth, e Yenteenth, und relghteenth · "--ei e submitted to the legisln t ures.

I b.QPe the Senator w.iU pardon me when I say-and 1 want to -say here that what b-e .says .oo any .question, wh-ether I .agree With him or not, carries with me great weight-! somewhat question the source from which th-e amendment comes. No man has · a higher regard .for the ability .and the stalwart statesmanship of the Senator from Alabama [l\ir. UNDERW-OOD] than have I. but I rath-er sn:spect--no; I can not use that w.oTd--1 dread, rather, that this may defeat. -dela-y, and hinder the -celerity with wltl.ch 1 would like to .see this amendment adopted.

I think the Senator from Alabama is correct in his philosophy as to how amendments should be ratified, yet I do not wish to see this particular one singled out and have it ratified in this w.ar. I trust, h-owever, that w-e shall pass a joint resolution submitting an amendment to the Constitution p.roviding that hereafter no amendment 'Shall be ratified by a State except by the vote of

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Mr. President. if the Sentor from 1\lisSOliTi [Mr. REED] : will allow me, I should Uke to suggest to the Senator from Arizona [Mr. AsHURST] that th-e fathers some :1:28 years ago in writing this Constitution p1·o:v'ided a method by which the voice of the people might be heard. I listened with deliberati-on and -care to the pr'Oponent of this measure for IIL..'lny months favoring th-e opportunity ~f the Ameri-can electorate to pass on this grave qu-estion. Of cour e, we all know that the constitutional :prov-ision dir-ectly gives the opportunity if Co:n­ gr-ess -avails itself of it. I did not rush into offering this amendment, !because I agree with th-e Senator that it would co_l}ill str-ong-er from the proponents of th-e measure, . uTe, Jbut when 1110 .one on that side, after advocating th-e submission :of this question to the people, proposed tille method, and th.e only -constitutional method by which the voice .of the people might really be heard, 1: felt that it was not ruShing in; that with due mod-esty I mig'ht myself propose it.

1\Ir. ASHURST. I am speaking ill the time of the Seuatl().l" ' from Missouri [Mr. REED], but I want to say again that for the statesmanship of the Senato-r from "Missouri an-d the Senator fro:m Alabama I have the highest re.gard. Indeed, so far fro-m !finding fault - with their -spirit of ind-ependence, I am inclin e d to o-vez:praise :it at times. .

Now, anoth-er thing-and I hope I am 11ot offensive when ;r say it-I am very certain that, even if we should attach this m-ethod, which provides for r.atification by conventions !inste--ad of by the legislatures of the pro-posed - constitutio-nal amendment. neither the distinguished Senator from :Missouri nor the abio :Senator from Alabama ' Woul-d vote for the joint resolution.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. No; but the Senator overloo-ks th-e fact that t-he position the Senator from Missouri and I occupy is not the proposition o-f favoring the -e ·tabHslunent of the right of suffrage by the Federal Governme-nt and taking it away from the States, but the challenge has been repeatedly hurled on the ifl-Oor -of the . Senate by the prO-ponents of this measure tba t the -peopl-e {)f th-e :se:ve.ral States had a right to grant this privilege to the women of the country, and we have ID-ere-I~· -accepted th~ challenge which has !been thro--wn at our feet. W-e challenge Y-6-11 to go to the hustings; we '.challenge you to submit this question to the people and not to the legislatures of the Stiltes. -

If the Senat-or from Missouri roil pardon me for OC-Cupying • ' 'his - time a moment longer, let us .analyze the s-ituation. The Senator from Arizona thinks that becau-se some l7 ,or ~8 -amendments !have been adapted by the legisl.atures of the States that forecloses the other method provided in the Constitution. Let us see .as to that. Ten ()f the a · amendments constituted the Bill ()f Rights, which it was understood woul-d ' be adopted in the l beginning when the original instrument was agreed t-o. Three of th~ -amendments gr-ew out of the Civil War, settling a great contest between the people {)f the sections of this country. Neeessar1ly ther-e was n-o issue made as to th-e right of the people to vote on the adoption of those amendments. In the case -of the -first 10 am-endments all of the States were for them, the people wer-e for ill-em. ; and in the case -of the 3 amendments growing out of the Civil War th:e South was on its 'back and the N-orth was -determin-ed to ratify th-em and put t hem in the Constitution. .A.s to some of the lat-er amendments-f-or instance, the one changing the d-ecision of the Supreme Court in reference to an. inco-me tax-airnDst ev.ery man on this floor, every man in the State legislatures, and the people themselv-es recognized that the power of the Federal Government in the beginning carried th-e right io le:vy an income tax, and that -only by a - divided court had that power been t.aken tt'\-vay from them. ·

As to the amendment providing for the election of Senators by the people there was n-o real opposition. Why delay the .sitaa - tion in llul.t casewhe:n.everyb{)dy iWll.S for- it? But when you come t-o · nn -amendment <d this kind, the second. direct attempt to invade :the 'SOve-reign rights of the Stat e s antl give t11< ~ ir power to the F-ederal Government, it is not such ·· a questiO-n as wali involved in the original amendments; it is a question that in­ port volves the very fundamental principles of our Government, a name question that the people of the United States and the people chance of the sovereign States alone have the right to pass upon; and by I insist that, if the gentlemen who are proponents of this meas­ they ure claim that this proposal should be submitted to the people against in order to give them an opportunity to be heard and to pass tively. upon it, then they can not deny the propriety and justice of adopting the only way by which the people of the sovereign wanted States can reflect their direct will in the acceptance or rejection ­ about of this proposaL

Mr. REED. Mr. President, the Senator from Arizona makes the argument that because we have in the past adopted con­ The stitutional amendments by votes of the legislatures, therefore could we ought not to change the method of ratification in this in­ he stance; yet he stands here telling us that the method of ratifi­ and cation by legislatures is so bad that he proposes to support an broad amendment to the Constitution which permanently takes away face from them the right of ratification _ tion of amendments to the Constitution and confer that power upon the people. When the Senator comes forward with his amendment he will be met with the antiquity argument just as completely then as he can now summon it to his aid, for the argument will then be made, "You are trying to change something that has existed all these could years." If it be true that the State legislatures and Congress of together might pervert the very form of our Government, if or that danger is great enough so that the Senator is willing to tion, support a constitutional amendment to change it; and if that the method is, as he described it, archaic and unfair, then why if not embrace the chance which is now afforded in the submission of the proposed pending constitutional amendment? Let us sub­ run mit this proposed amendment in a fair way. Why submit it and in an unfair and archaic way? Why not submit it in a fair and modern way? The argument goes too far, - but it is adroitly people . made. ·

I know the Senator from Arizona is distressed. He does not only like to deny the people of his State a right to vote on any question that concerns them. He is that kind of a Democrat. Give into them a chance to vote on this matter. Give the people of my my State a chance to vote on it I am begging for that; I am were asking it in the name of over three and one-half million people. of If you are going to amend the Constitution and force that women amendment upon the people of my State, at least give those people a chance to express their opinion. They are a great people-­ citize,n not greater than the people of other States, but as great. They of represent the best there is in education, intelligence, patriotism, States independence, and love of country. Let them have a chance to that have a vote to select delegates to do the thing that you say ought to be reserved to the people always . . Let us have that chance now, not to-morrow. If it is good and righteous and fair to change the Constitution so that the people of the States will always have the right-if that is a good thing to do tomorrow or next week, why not do that good thing to-day? Why not deal with the question that is before us?

Mr. ASHURST. Mr. President, the Senator from Missouri swered to their names : is one of the ablest lawyers I have ever seen, and he is aware that there is running all through our law the well-known prin­ Ball ciple that the rule of procedure shall not be changed nor the Bankhead statute of limitations shortened while the cause is pending. Beckham Borah l\Ir. REED. Ah; but the cause is not pending until the vote Brandegee is taken here. . Calder l\lr. ASHURST. It has been pending, I think, if not techni­ Capper cally at least practically for four years. One of the reasons Culberson why I would not at this time vote for the amendment of the · Cummins Senator from Alabama is that I think it would be a change of Curtis the remedy while the case is pending. It would be unusual; it Dial would be analogous to shortening the period of the limitation Edge right in the middle of a trial. Elkins

Mr. REED. Oh, no; when the trial is on and rights have Fall Fernald been fixed under the law then existing, of course, you can not France change it; but this is a question that has not yet arrived at a Gay point that it can be said to be "a cause." When the Congress shall submit it to the people, then it may be said to be in that shape; and if after it had been submitted we were to undertake to change the method of submission, there might be something in the Senator's argument; but it is more specious than it is persuasive. ·

But, Mr. President, because the question has been discussed surely does not juStify the Senator's position, for there is not a question that will be brought forward involving an amendment to the COnstitution of the United States in the next 50 years that will not have been discussed in some form or other at some time by somebody. No; the S-enator is without a reason; be has to go back on a referendum or else support the amendment offered by the Senator from Alabama. I hope he will supit; I am begging him to support it; I am asking it in the of the people of a great State who will not be given any to express their opinion unless the amendment offered the Senator from Alabama is adopted. If they are for it, ought to be allowed to register their will; and if they are it, no one ought to deny them the right to protest effecThere is another reason th . at I want to offer. I have often to go to the Senator's State-! have heard so much it-and I have been so pleased with the people of that State whom I have met; but I do not know anything about the Senator's State except as I hear about it and read about it. Senator knows more about Arizona in a moment than I learn by reading and studying for 5 years or 10 years, for has lived there, and he is a part of the people of that State, has the spirit of Arizona-the spirit that is born on the plains, the spirit that sweeps across Arizona's glorious upon the wings of the morning. He knows Arizona, but he does not know my State, and I do not know his. I would not deny him the right to have the people of his State vote on a question involving their fundamental rights.

You ask me my position on this question. If we had the votes to pass an amendment to the Constitution providing that women not vote in the State of Arizona, taking that question out the hands of the people of the State of Arizona, or Montana, Colorado, or Wyoming, I would not vote for such a proposition, matter who told me to, because I would say, "It is for people of those States to regulate their own affairs." But such a proposition were brought forward-and it may be ­ brought forward some day, for the tides run in and the tides out, and opinions change with time-if it ever is offered I am sitting here I pledge the Senator now that I will vote against it; and if an amendment is offered which reserves to the of the Senator's State the right to vote and the Senator wants my vote in favor of that he will get it, because it would be the fair thing to do.

There is not anything about this question that need lead us doing things that are unfair and unjust. I repeat, so that position never will be misunderstood, that if an amendment offered here to-morrow that would deny the people of any these States where suffrage exists the right to permit their to vote I would fight it as hard as I am fighting this, because it is the State's business; and I have no right, as a of Missouri, to interfere with the rights of the people Wyoming or Arizona. Surely if the Representatives of those asked that their people might vote I would give them poor privilege, at least.

Mr. President, I beg pardon for speaking so long.

The PRESIDING OFFICER (1\Ir. WALSH of Montana in the chair). The question is on the amendment-of the Senator from Alabama [Mr. UNDERWOOD]. 1\Ir. REED. I suggest the absence of a quorum. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Secretary will call the roll. The Secretary called the roll, and the following Senators anAshurst Gronna McLean Smith, Md.

Hale McNary Smith, S.C.