October 24, 1803

Mr. BuTLEB, from the committee to whom was referred, on the 32d inst., the motion for an amendment 13 the Constitution of the United States, made report, which was read.

Mr. Datton moved to strike out all which respected the appointment of a Vice President.

He said the great inducements of the framers of the Constitution to admit the office of Vice President was, that, by the mode of choice, the best and most respectable man should he designated ; and that the Electors of each Stale should vote for one person at least, living in a different State from themselves; and if the substance of the amendmentwas adopted, bethought the office had belter be abolished. Jealousies were natural between President and Vice President; DO heir apparent ever loved the person on the throne. With this resolution for an amendment to the Constitution we were left with all the inconveniencies, without a singleadrantagefrom the office of Vice President.

Mr. Clibtom. — The obvious intention of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from New Jersey, is to put olT or get nd of the main ijuef tion. It would more comport widi the candor of ibe gentleman to meet the question fairly. Can ibe gentleman suppose that the Electors will not vote for a man of respectability for Vice President? True, ibe qualifications are distinct, and ought not to be confounded; this will stave off the question till the Legislatures of the States of Tennessee and Vermont are out of session, and the object must be very obvious.

Mr. Dayton. — The custom of the gentleman from New York has been of late to arraign motives instead of meeting arguments; on Saturday he accused me of wishing to procrastinate, and now the same is repeated.

The reasons of erecting the office are frustrated by the amendment to the Constitution now proposed ; it will be preferable, therefore, to abolish the office.

Mr. Clinton.— The charge of the gentleman from New Jersey is totally unfounded that 1 arraign motives, and do not meet arguments. On Saturday, the gentleman accused me of precipitation ; I am not in the habit of arimigning molives, as this Senate can witness, and the charge is totally untrue.

Mr. Nicholas.— To secure the United States from the danger: which existed during the last choice of President, the present resolution was introduced. It was impossible to act upon, or pass the amendment offered by the member from New Jersey, with a full view of all its bearings at this time. it ought not to stand in the way of the resolution reported by the committee, for twothirds or three-quarters of the State Legislatures would be in session in two or three months; the Senate had, therefore, better not admit ibeamendment, even if convinced that it was correct, because it might jeopardize the main amendment of discriminating.

Mr. Bdtler moved a postponement until Wednesday, because the amendment was important, and he had not had sufficient time to make up his Mr. Wortbinoton said the same.

This motion was seconded.

Mr. Cocke was opposed to the postponement, because he feared the State Legislatures would be out of session, so as not to carry the amendment into effect before the next choice of President.

Mr. Wriobt was opposed to the postponement. The proposition of the gentleman from New Jersey was foreign to the nrsi amendment. The people had not expressed an opinion upon it, pro nor con, but on the discriminating principle, they had. Whatever his opinion was, he would not vote for this amendment till he knew the voice of the people upon it. Shall we postpone, beyond this session, what we do understand, in order to take up what we do not understand In a representative Government we ought to act as we think the people wish, and in pursuance to the public mind.

Mr. Jackson did not know how he should vote I Ibe amendment offered by the gentleman from New Jersey, but was willing to indulge ihegentleman who asked for a postponement. What were the ideas of ireDilemeD 1 Were the State Legislatures all about to die? If they were not in session when Congress had acted upon this ■mendtneQl they could be called together. He remembered that the Vice President was called ' the fifth wheel to a coach, msoy years ago, and it might be well, now we are on the subject, to examine whether the office cannot be dispensed with. We have time enough. Mr. H[LLHODeE. — So important was this subJ'ect, that he wished for more time; the gentleman from New York thinks the two offices are rerv diverse ; (here he cited the Constitution, by which the duties of the President devolve on the Vice President in certain cases;) he thought it worthy of mature consideration, if the disc rim in at log principle was introduced into the choice of Vice President, whether the office had not belter be abolished. and how long they would probably supposed a day or two spent in deli beta lion would not cause much trouble or expense.

Mr. Anderson said the Legislature of Tennessee would probably sit till the tenth or fifteenth of November.

Mr. WoBTBiHOTOH said he was opposed to the postponement, and should vote against the amendment, because he was not prepared to act upon it; not knowing what was the opinion of his consiitMr. S. Smith mentioned that the last choice of new. If the choice of Vice President in the way proposed, should, upon experiment, prove to be improper, then it could be altered.

He was ready to act at once and voteagainst the amendment, and should not pay so poor a compliment to any gentleman's abilities, as to say he could not make up his mind at once. He was against postponing.

Thequesiion for postponement was taken, and lost— ayes 15, noes 16.

The amendment of Mr. Dayton was now before the Senate. . Mr. AuAMS thought the discriminating priuci-

I, the . . Whether it was best to abolish or not. he would not say, but to consider it with the other subject was certainly correct, and he wished for longer time.

Mr. Maclat could not see that any new principle was introduced by the committee,' he thought that a suggestion that an improper person would be chosen Vice President was premature ; it could not be known till tried.

Mr. BeECEEKitiDaE said his mind was made up to vote lor nothing but ibe discriminating principle, so his constituents wished ; and he would not £0 into consideration of any other amendments, but wished this to go into operation before the next election. His opinion was. that the duration of the office in the Senate, (six years,) was the most anti-republican he could conceive of, but if he moved that and connected it with the discriminating principle, he might lose all; he wasagainat a postponement.

Mr. White was convinced that the membera were unprepared to act. and particularly so, by what fell from the member last up, and moved a postponement until to-morrow.

This motion was seconded by Mr. Bdtlbr.

Mr. Clikton moved for ibe yeas and nays upon the question of postponement.

Mr. Anderson said, he should vote for the postponement ; . and as the yeas and nays were called, he would offer the reasons for his vote.

He had long been a member of the Senate, and had never known a postponement denied under similar circumstances. The question was important, and a denial of time to consider it, was, in bis opinion, unfair and improper.

Mr. Jackson would vote as be thought proper, notwithstanding the call for yeas and nays, and if the call had any influence upon him, it was to confirm him in a vote for postponement.

Mr. CocKE would clear his skirts, if gentlemen were determined to reject it in a pet ; he should Mr. Butler was alarmed at what he saw this day; he wished to lake a long and deep view of ihb subject, and there was not time now, the day was far spent ; he rather thought the office of Vice President might be abolished, but he would not commit himself now ; he wished for time, not to discredit, by a hasty decision, the States from which the Senate came-

Mr. 8. Smith regretted that a motion for postponement was made, for it has precluded all investigation ; if the motion had not been made, B full investigation would have been had, and a postponement till to-morrow would have afforded opportunity to form an opinion with all the arguments in mind.

Mr. Dayton said that he had already stated to the Senate that he conceived himself impelled by a sense of duty to offer the amendment under consideration for abolishing altogether the officeof Vice President, if the change which was proposed to be made in the mode of electing the President should prevail. When gentlemen had considered the subject too important to be decided upon that day, he felt disposed to indulge them with a reasonable time for consideration, and he hoped that the postponement they asked for would be consented to. There existed, Mr. D. said, in the first volume of the Journals of the Senate, a striking monument of the hasty and inconsiderate manner in which amendments might be agreed to by both Houses. He alluded to the first of the twelve amendments, which, it was easy to show, was both absurd and impracticable. It professed to prescribe the ratio of representation for every possible increase Of numbers, whereas, instead of effecting that object, it actually containeda positive interdiction any representation, after our number should exceed eight millions. Extraordinary as it might seem, it was nevertheless most true, that it had been adopted by so many States as to have required ODif one more to have made it a part of our Constitution. Had ii unfortunately been adopted, what, Mr. D. asked, would have been our situation, when our numbers amounted to nine millions? There could certainly be no representation in the other branch, consistently with that amendment of the Constitution, for there would either be less than two hundred Representatives, or more than one for every fifty thousand, both of which were then expressly prohibited. What would Congress have done in that case'! Would they have permitted a dissolution of the Government, or would they have ventured boldly to have broken the Constitution, and, in the language of the honorable gentleman from Virginia, have thrown themselves upon the people for pardon for the breach, and upon Heaven for forgiveness for the violation of their oaths. This was the distressing, the dreadful dilemma to which the Legislature of the Union were exposed in consequence of their having bestowed too little attention to iheamendments which themselves had offered to the people, and it ought surely to operate as a solemn warning upon the present and all future occasions, against proposing any alteration in the Constitution without the most deliberate consideration of its intrinsic merits, as well as of all its consequences and of its bearings upon all the olbet parts of While he was on the floor, he would take the liberty of saying that he had not thought proper to answer the honorable member from New York, because his high respect. for the Senate restrained him from replying in those terms which were due to such rudeness and such indecency of language • u that in which that member had indalgedhimlelf. There would be a fitter time and a fitter place for taking that notice of it which it merited. A motion for adjournment was now made and carried — ayes 16, noes 15.