April 17, 1911 (2)

Mr. CLARK of Wyoming. Mr. President, I noticed n. moment ago that House joint resolution 39 providing for the direct election of Senators by the people was referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. During the last Congress a similar joint resolution, introduced by the Senator from Kansas [1\Ir. BRISTOW], was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary and was there considered and reported to the Senate. In looking up the precedents with regard to resolutions upon this particular subject I find that prior to the last Congress references had been made to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. I make this statement now so as to account, perhaps, for the fact that I did not ask that the joint resolution go in this case to the Committee on the Judiciary and did not object to its being placed in the Committee on Privileges and Elections.

Mr. HEYBURN. Mr . President, I ask, for information, whether it is true that other joint resolutions with reference to the election of Senators by direct vote have gone at this Session to the Judic:iary Committee?

Mr. BACON. Yes.

'.rbe VICE PRESIDENT . As a matter of information, the Chair, of his own knowledge, can not tell the Senator. The Secretary informs the Chair, however, that the:y have been so referred. It would be the Chair's notion to refer such joint resolutions to the Committee on the Judiciary; but a request otherwise was made, and by unanimous consent, the matter being put by the Chair to the Senate, the reference was made to tlle Committee on Privileges and Elections.

~Ir. HEYBURN. 1\Ir. President, in the interest of uniformity of procedure, if there is no graver reason-and I think perhaps other reasons might be shown-resolutions on this subject should be referred to some one committee; the appropriate committee should be determined; an.d tlle question being before the Senate, it might as well be determined now as at another time. I ask unanimous consent that all bills or resolutions heretofore introduced in the Senate at this session of Congress directed to a change in the sy s tem of electing United States Senators be referred to the Committee on Privileges ancl Elections. For that purpose I also ask unanimous consent that tlle Committee on the Judiciary be discharged from the further consideration of all bills and joint resolutions relating to the election of Senators by direct vote of the people which may have heretofore u t the present session been referred to it.

Tbe YICE PRESIDENT. The Senator from Idaho nsks unnnirnous consent that the Committee on the Judiciary be discharged from the further consideration of all l>ills and joint resolutions relating to the election of Senators by direct >ote of the people which have been introduced at this session of Cougress and referred to that committee, and that such bills and joint resolutions be referred to the Committee on PriYile"'eS and Elections. Is there objection? I

Mr. CULBERSON. I object to that.

The VICE PRESIDENT. Objection is made.

Mr. ~ACON. Mr. President, I myself think that the joint resolution which has been referred this morning to the Committee on Privileges and Elections should be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. It relates not to the ordinary matter of the privileges of the floor and the election of Senators but it relates to a change in the fundamental law of the land: a change in the Constitution of the United States. If there it) any question which should be referred to the law committee of the Senate, it is n. proposition to make a change in the Constitution.

It will not do to say, Mr. President, that such a question should be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections because of the fact that it relates to the pnrticular matter of an election, for, if that argument is good, then eyery proposition to chllllge the Constitution would, when presented, be referred to some other committee than the Committee on the Judiciary. It would be r eferred to some committee which had charge of a subject that was more nearly related to tlle direct ol>ject of the change.

'.rhe object of the appointment of a Judiciary Committee is to hn ve referred to it questions which affect the enactment of law which relates to the judiciary system and other matters which relate strictly to a legal question. I think, therefore, that all proposed changes in the Constitution ought to go to the Judiciary Committee.

I will say that, of course. everybody recognizes that the lawyers on the Committee on Privileges and Elections are just as able as are the lawyers on the Judiciary Committee, but it is not a fact that it is necessary that all members of the Committee on Privileges and Elections should be lawyers, whereas it is considered necessary that all members of the Judiciary Committee should. be lawyers.

This particular question is one that in the last Congress was dealt with by the Judiciary Committee exclusively. That committee had charge of all proposed legislation upon that subject. It brought a joint resolution into the Senate, which was acted upon by the Senate, and other resolutions on the same lines which have been introduced in the Senate during the present session have already been referred to the Judiciary Commit . We have considered the question, Mr. President, as to the reference of bills to the Judiciary Committee in relation to other matters. I remember that in a former session-I have forgotten whether it was in the last session-there was legislation proposed for Porto Rico tlle nature of which properly would bring it more directly to the consideration of the Judiciary Committee. The question was raised whether it should not go to the Committee on Pacific Islands and Porto Rico. It was contended that it should go to that committee. There were questions involved which -related to the judicial system of Porto Rico and other questions which related to the confirmation of judicial officers in Porto Rico. The contention then was that as we had a special committee to consider those matters the proposed legislation should go to that committee rather than to the Judiciary Committee. After consideration, it was determined that, while the legislation did relate to Porto Rican matters, its nature was such as properly required its reference to the Judiciary Committee.

Analogizing that to the present case, while it is true that this proposed change relates to the election of Senators, the nature of it involves the gravest of all considerations, such as should be in charge, it seems to me, of the Judiciary Committee. I trust that it may be so referred.

Mr. HEYBURN . 1\Ir. President, it is not my intention to enter into un extended consideration of this question, but some suggestions made by the Senator from Georgia in giving reasons n by this proposed legislation should go to the Judiciary Committee seem to rue to call for more. than u passing notice.

Tlle Senator, if I understood his remarks unu their purport, suggested that because of the gravity of the question, because of the necessity for high consideration, it should go to the Juill . ci:uy Committee-. If I misunderstood the Senator, . tor, I should be TCI'Y glad to be corrected.

Mr. BACON . The Senator misunderstands me in a certain application, certainly, if he thinks I used any such language as that. I mean this: That the class of questions which properly goes to the- Judiciary Committee is tlie class that relates to a change in the Constitution, and that among tlle class of questions which should properly go to the Judiciary Committee this -was one of the gravest. I do not mean to say, ~fr . President, that a grave question ought not to be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections . Them could not be any graver question before the Senate than the right of a Senator to his seat on this floor, ancl yet nobody would contend that because of the fact that it was such a gra-ve question it should go to the Judiciary Committee.

I hope that illustration disabuses the mind of the honorable and learned Senator of any suggestion that I intended to imply that because the question was grave it ought not to go to the Committee on Privileges and Elections.

Ur . HEYBURN. Mr. President--

Mr . BACON. I say, belonging to the class of questions which should properly go to the Judiciary Committee, and being 011e of the gravest of that class, it should go to the Judiciary Committee .

Mr . HEJYilURN. I did not intend to criticize the Senator . . ' Chair . I merely desired to draw forth such an expression as would le1rrn no question in the RECORD as to what the Senator from Georgia intended by his remarks.

I am inclined to think that such n joint resolution should go to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. It pertains to the election of Senators and to their pri-vilege as Senators. . The Judiciary Committee has nothing especially to do, more than another, with such a question. Through accident, I think during the last Congress, such a resolution went to the Committee on the Judiciary and was reported out of that committee and rejected by the Senate .

It is not fair to the Committee on Privileges and Elections to send matters of this kind to another committee, in view of the fact that in the past, relying upon precedent or rather appealing to it, such matters have been referred te> and reported back tions . by the Committee on Privileges and Elections .

I regret that the ranking member of the Committee on Privi ­ leges and Elections is not present. I sent for him, but hm-e not been able to call his attention to the fact that this question is being considered. I think it had better rest without action until he is present .

Mr . CLARK of Wyoming . Mr . President, I called attention to. the reference by the Chair to the Committee on Privileges and Ele-ctions because- of the fact that I cared not, us a member of the Judiciary Committee, this morning to insist that that committee be given the consideration of this particular joint resolution. During the last Congress, as I before remarked, n similar resolution was presented . It was then thought best to send it to the Committee on Privileges and Elections, but having in my mind exactly the idea suggested by the Senator from Georgia, that this is a matter which went to the amendment of the fundamental law of the land, and without personal knowledge of the course that other like resolutions had taken theretofore. I moved, and the motion was sustained, that the. joint resolution go to the Committee on the Judiciary.

Tha.t committee ha.s heretofore considered a like joint resolution and reported to the Senate the result of its labors. Since that time my attention has been called to the fac:t that the inrnriublc practice of the Senate theretofore has been to send this identical subject matter to the Committee on Privileges and Elections; that that course was agreed to by the eminent Senator from Massachusetts , Mr . Hoar, who made one report from the Committee on Privileges and Elections, and by the Senator from Indiana, Mr. Turpie, who made a minority report from that committee. Therefore, and further in view of the fact that the Judiciary Committee has also pending before it now a similar resolution, I made no objection t() the reference as made by the Chair in tlle present instance.

The VICJiJ PRESIDENT . The Chair lays before: the Senate a message from the President of the United States.

Mr . CULBERSON . I ask what disposition has been made of the joint resolution?

The VICE PRESIDENT . It was referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections, and that reference has not been changed . No suggestion has been made to change it. The joint resolution is now with the Committee ' on Privileges and Nlections.

l\Ir . CULBERSON . I move that the joint resolution be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

The VICE PRESIDENT. The Senator from Texas moves that the Committee on Privileges , and Elections be discharged--

JHr. CULBERSON. I will simply state that there is now pending before that committee tllrae joint resolutions on the same subject. introduced at this session, :md referred wiillout question at tlle time they were introduced.

Mr. GALLINGER. Mr . .President, n single word. It was at my instance, I believe, that tlle reference was made to tlic Committee on Privileges ancl Elections . I was cognizant of the fact that always prior to the Just session such reference had been made, and I kept in mind the further fact that the Committee on the Judiciary is n committee ~ luning a very l nrg c number of bills before it-an overworked committee-while the Committee on Privileges and Elections has practically nothing . to do, pmvicl e u this joint resolution goes to the Committee on the Judiciary . I believe that the reference as made is the proper reference, a.nd I trust that the committee will not be discharged ancl the reference changed .

Mr. HEYBURN . I understand that the matter is in such a position before tile Senate that one objection carries it over .

The VICE PRESIDENT . The Senator from Texas moves that the Committee on Privileges and Elections be d i scharged from the further consideration of the joint resolution .

Mr. CULBERSON . ‘That is not my motion I submit to th . e

The VICE PRESIDENT . That is the only motion--

Mr . CULBERSON. I understood the Chair had made the reference against its judgment.

The VICE PRESIDENT . No; the Senator is incorrect in the fact . The Chair bad originally suggested a reference to the Committee - on the Judiciary . The Senator from New Hampshire then asked that the reference be to the Committee on Privileges and Elections . The Chair then stated, after waiting a reasonable length of time, that unless there was objection the reference would be as suggested by the Senator from New · Hampshire . . That reference was made .

Some little time after-a lot of business intervening-the matter was again brought up, nt the present time. Now, the joint resolution is with the Committee on Privileges :incl Elec ­

Mr . CULBERSON . The joint resolution has been referred?

The VICE PRESIDENT. . Yes.

Mr . CULBERSON. Now I move that the action of the Senate i n referr i ng the joint resolution to the Committee on Privileges and Elections be reconsidered .

The VICE PRESIDENT. That is co ' correct.

Mr . HEYBURN . I ask that that go over .

Mr . CULBERSON . Not to discharge the committee, in tba t form, nor was . any such purpose intended by me originally .

Mr . HEYBURN . I ask that tllc motion go over.

Mr . BACON. . Mr . President——

The VICE PRESIDENT. If th.e Senator from Georgia will wait one moment. the Senator from Idaho asks that the motion of the Senator from Texas go over until to-morrow . The Chair hardly thinks it is a motion which must go over ns a matter of right. A motion to discharge tlrn committee would have to go over, but a motion to re-consider tllc action of the Senate just taken does not have to go over, the Chair thinks, under the rule .

Mr . HEYBURN. I do not controvert the decision o f the Chair, for I think the Chair is correct, but I think the motion is an improper one, been use, as I under stand the rule, no motion can be m:ulc during the morning hour that does not go over under objection.

The VICE PRESIDENT. . The motion would not be in order before 1 o'clock, the Chair thinks.

Mr . BACON. I desire, with the permission of the Chair, to make . a suggestion. . stion . While tlle Chair ll!1s nircdcd that the joint resolution be sent to the Committee on Pddlcges and Elections , it has not in fact been so sent. Tlle committee has never been charged with it, has never recei1ctl it, and rea.lly a motion to cUschnrgc the committee would not be in order. · I want to say this--

The VICE PRESIDENT . That is not the motion .

Mr. BACON. . I understand that.

The VICE PRESIDENT. . The Senator from Texas chnnge d . his motion.

Mr. BACON. I was simply premising that. The suggestion I wish to make is that in every tribunal, whether a legislative tribunal or a judicial tribunal, matters which nrc in process of disposition, until finally acted upon, are what are known in the legal procedure as in gremio lei;is-that is, in the bosom of the enterecl . body; and it is not necesEary, in my opinion, that there should be any motion to reconsider or any motion to discharge . It is - simply sufficient for the body now having the matter still in its hands, it not having passed from it, simply to determine that it should go to such a committee rather than to the one previously indicated.

The VICE PRESIDENT. The Chair thinks that when busi­ · ness has intervened following a reference, the reference stands until the Senate takes some other action, but the Chair further thinks that the motion of the Senator from Texas would not be in order until after 1 o'clock. Then the motion could be made.

Mr. CULBERSON. I can enter it at this time.

The VICE PRESIDENT. Oh, yes.

Mr. CULBEH SON . Which is practically what I have done.

The VICE PRESIDENT. Very well.

Mr. LODGE. If I may venture to make a ' Suggestion, the desire is to carry the joint resolution over. Supposing the motion to reconsider prevails; that brings the joint resolution before the Senate again for its first reading. Of course, the second reading on the same day can only be bad by unanimous consent.

The VICE PRESIDENT. That is correct.

Mr. LODGE. And n single objection to its second reading on the same day would send it over, which would carry the question of reference with it.

Mr. BORAH. Mr . President, I was necessarily detained from the Chamber when this matter first arose, and I do not know that I a.m entirely familiar with the situation. As I understand, the reference was made to the Committee on Privileges and Elections; that thereafter the Senator from Texas made a motion to reconsider that reference; and that that motion, 1n the opinion of the Chair, could not be made, as a matter of fact, until 1 o'clock. If that is the situation, I do not care at this time to take up the time of the Senate--

The VICE PRESIDENT. That is the situation.

Mr. BORAH. In discussing the matter, but will wait until the appropriate time to do so, at 1 o'clock.